Scripture and politics...
I exercise regularly.
I'm very disappointed with our Presidential candidates.
I tend to daydream while exercising about what my stump speach would sound like if I were running for President. It gets really good when I think about what I'd say or do if asked about a pointed issue.
Most recently one of those issues was the question Katie Curic asked Sarah Palin...She asked her "What do you read to establish your view and opinions on global issues?"
On the surface this seems like a reasonable questions...unless of course, you have a Biblical world view. I mean really...what if Sarah answered like this:
"Well Katie, I read a lot, and all of it impacts my opinion on Global issues. I read Harvard Business Review, Time, Newsweek, The Wall Street Journal, my local paper - which is owned by the New York Times, and I also read the Bible, which tends to overlay everything I take in to give me proper perspective."
Katie: "Really, how so?"
Sarah: "Take for example God's command to Abram as he was directing him to Canaan...He told him he would be the father of a great nation and those that blessed Isreal will be blessed, and those that cursed Isreal will be cursed. Katie, it doesn't take a world scholar to look at modern (post-WWII) history and see that in the last 50 years our country has stood resolutely beside Isreal, and we've been blessed beyond belief...arguably the most blessed nation in the history of the world. And on the other side, how are things going for Iran, Sudan, Egypt, Iraq, and most recently those aligning against Isreal: Russia, Cuba, Venezuela. Now I'm not saying that this is God's plan, but I do find it very coincidental."
Now imagine the firestorm that would result from this level of honesty. Throw in a couple of questions on abortion, stem cell research, cloning, homosexuality and other blowtorch issues of the day, and anyone with a Biblical World View would be crucified (intentional pun) by the media before they got 12% of the vote.
However, the reality is, Scripture plays a huge part in politics. I want my leader to stay aligned with Isreal. I want my leader to nominate Judges who interpret the constitution liberally, not Judges who think that until they took the bench, everyone before them was stupid and its there duty to enlighten all the rest of us.
The world is getting progressively more complex. Now more than ever we need a plumbline. It's very frustrating to me why we can't talk about what that plumbline is, or be direct about God's influence on this earth.
GRRRRR (that's frustration)
posted by Hollywood at 10:02 AM
26 Comments:
Food for Thought: It's a VERY dangerous thing to equate what Scripture calls Israel and the current political state of Israel. They may or may not be one and the same.
And, I'm not the least bit interested in a theocracy. When I look at Scripture and compare the current U.S. government against some of what was going on in world power governments in the first century, well, even the so-called "worst" U.S. leaders are not as vicious.
Also, the world is no more or less complex than 4,000 years ago. They didn't put a man on the moon, but human nature is still the same...which is what causes all the upheaval, anyway.
Lastly, God is sovereign and certainly doesn't need us to influence this earth. He can do that quite well on His own. Our role is simply to be salt & light no matter what is going on around us. Simply check out what 1st century Ephesus, Corinth or Rome was dealing with and how Christians were supposed to live.
There's very little correlation between the Christian life and government. The Christian life is beautiful in the transformation. The government, well, can't do one thing to transform hearts and lives.
So, vote your conscience.
And outlive the world.
And don't worry one iota about what some politician says or does. They study the media more than we do and manipulate it to their ends.
5:22 AM
Theocracy, who mentioned that. I've got no interest in that either. I'm just saying that leaders with the resoluteness of Daniel or Joseph (read Alan Keyes here), would not make it past there local city councel election.
SO if you are an inside out Christian, you either don't run for anything...or, water down your stance to the point that you borderline on luke warm in order to pass the media litmus test.
Bottom line...if a Christian just happens to be a tremendous political or business leader...like Joseph or David...he doesn't make it through the primary at any level.
6:58 PM
The thing is, "Christians" have been president for pretty much the last century or a tad longer.
I think Christians in every area of life should strive to be excellent in their field first (think U2) rather than "Christians" first (think Audio Adrenaline). In other words, salt & light in their arena. And, if their arena is politics (and I have former students with such an interest) then strive to be excellent first. Show me by your actions and then you won't have to talk about it.
What steams me is that Christians have a myopic view of what "Christians" should vote for rather than allowing for true freedom of thought (like my comment on Israel). Scripture isn't nearly as clear on those things as certain political parties want them to be and portray them to be.
5:27 AM
I get it...with one BIG issue.
We ARE Christians first. By the fact that it flows from the inside out, it is in our fabric. If Joseph wasn't faithful to God to the CORE, he would have caved in many decisions he made...they had nothing to do with excellence in performance (which he did).
There's no way that we should be defined by what we do first, as opposed to who we are. If I read you right, God would rather Bono be defined as a great musician who happens to be a follower of Christ, than a follower of Christ who happens to be a great musician. I'd love to know what scripture supports that. I bet I can find more that supports the latter.
We really need to do this over coffee sometime.
I love talking to you.
12:05 PM
You didn't read me right. It isn't how God sees us (which is co-heirs, adopted sons, sealed, etc.) first but rather how those that aren't followers of Christ should see us first.
See, if I go to a surgeon, it's entirely irrelevant to me whether or not he's/she's a Christian. I want him/her to be excellent at what he/she does. If it turns out that they aren't, such is life and I'm healthy. If they are, then we share a bond, and they have witnessing ops.
Same for my accountant. Or my teachers. Or my banker. Or my insurance agent. Or my firefighters/policemen. I'm thinking that if Christians focused on being great musicians (like U2 in my example) and ARE, then they get platforms to address issues from their perspective. I mean, c'mon. He's not even a U.S. citizen, and he's a singer, but he can ask for (AND GET) an audience with the president of the United States--and freakin' ask him to erase accounts payable! Audio Adrenaline can't. And they by-and-large sing a message their audience already agrees with and are pigeonholed to that audience, with little, if any, outside ability to minister.
So, in one sense, I think it's vital that we love our neighbors as ourselves...and my neighbor couldn't care less about my church. But he cares if I keep my house nice and my yard mowed. If you want Scriptures...I'm all over that with stuff like doing justice, loving mercy, loving the outcast. I've got zillions.
My point isn't that we put on any act of any type. But rather that a Christian who says, "I'm a Christian plumber" is going to have WAY less influence than a plumber who says, "I can freakin' fix any problem you've got in a timely and professional manner and charge reasonable rates" is much more likely to get someone to come to their church or get someone to listen as they talk about their God.
In other words, BE who you are created to BE...with excellence. Then shut up. You'll be living so loudly the world can't even hear what you say...and that's the new apologetic.
4:58 AM
Which, by the way, is the old apologetic.
4:58 AM
Not interested in a theocracy? Someone is getting ready to rule and reign for a thousand years and it will be the ultimate theocracy.
7:19 PM
"It's a VERY dangerous thing..."
The current state of Israel is still comprised of Jews - the apple of God's eye. The gospel is to go the Jews FIRST and also to the Gentiles. Regardless of our political term for Israel, the Jews are responsible for delivering the Savior to us. The Jews are honored by God and not forgotten by Him (Romans 9-11) and should held in great esteem by Christians.
7:35 PM
The world is no more or less complex...?
What?
Have you been asleep?
Never before has the world been so intricately intertwined that a hiccup in the U.S. stock market could cause global financial earthquakes and subsequent financial devastation for millions.
Never before have countries been so delicately dependent upon one another.
Never before have we seen the nuclear potential to melt entire geographic regions off the face of the earth.
Never before have we seen the colossal financial losses from natural disasters.
Never before...
7:51 PM
Okay, Cletus...
First of all, point taken. I'm very interested in a theocracy in the future. what I'm not interested in at all is making America a theocracy. I would've hoped you'd have gotten that from the context of the post I was responding to, but clearly you didn't.
Secondly, again, contextually, the current political state and the Israel spoken of in Scripture are VERY dangerous to mix when interpreting promises. I don't disagree with you that Israel has a very special place in God's economy...but I maintain that aligning American political alliances with the current political state of Israel and basing that Scripturally might not be one and the same. That's all.
And, I'd respectfully suggest that your "never befores" have indeed happened before. World markets have been intertwined ever since there's been a world. Countries have always been dependent on one another. And, while we might not have had nuclear weapons, there have been plagues that have wiped out 1/3 of the world's population (and if Scripture's true, then that little Noahic flood or the plagues of Eqypt have likely been worse). I could go on...but to look at this little slice of world history and suggest that we're somehow unique...well...there's nothing new under the sun, right?
Granted, they might not have put a man on the moon...but they weren't stupid back then. They built amazing buildings, they understood economic relations, etc. They had superpowers in the first century.
Please.
6:02 AM
Oh, and the current political state of Israel might have Jews living there, but using the verses you quoted you might find that they are not all Israel who have descended from Israel. There's more to it than that. Simply read the chapters you quoted.
6:05 AM
Great...another reader.
8:58 AM
Brent your message is too passive and benign - "In other words, BE who you are created to BE...with excellence. Then shut up. You'll be living so loudly the world can't even hear what you say...and that's the new apologetic."
Please, that is a VERY stupid thing to say.
?Then shut up? Since when are we called to be passive? The rhetorical question begs to be introduced here..."How shall they hear without someone preaching"(Romans 10:14) People MUST say something.
The new apologetic? That's a bunch of empty cold air. Perhaps that's your new and old passive apologetic, but not God's. Please, by life AND lip. While you and others who adopt your passive approach to spreading the gospel are busy cutting your lawns, the Mormons are spreading their message by life and lip. And they often live a more sanctified life than most Christians. Does that mean that Christians should convert to Mormonism? Well, by your standard, perhaps it should be a consideration.
The new apologetic? I got saved by way of a guy most Christians would reject. He couldn't seem to get the grease out of his hair. Thank God he didn't hear about the new and old apologetic.
Of course people don't get saved by riding around on bicycles, good works and such. They are saved by a Savior because they have stained themselves by sinning and cannot save themselves - they need a Savior. Jesus died and rose again to purchase our freedom from sin and death. Our faith in Him saves us.
Faith in ourselves is futile. Only Jesus can redeem us.
OK, why have a blog? Why not just have a perfectly sharpened pencil and pristine paper that everyone can look at? Or a blank blog space that has been undisturbed and unviolated by text? How annoying would that be? I think God is just as annoyed when His people go silent on Him. Especially when preachers encourage them to do so.
Brent, maybe you need to redefine your concept of spreading the gospel, cause those Mormons are DOING all the day-to-day stuff with greater vigor and excellence than.
This isn't Candy Land. People are dying for the gospel daily for TELLING people the good news. And your comment is "shut up." GET REAL
7:37 AM
Your quote Brent “Please”
Brent, your tone comes off as condescending and your demeanor as pompous. It seems as though you write on this blog to correct Hollywood. Like you’re “better than” and put out by having to come down from your throne to once again right the wrongs instead of just voicing your opinion. I feel no love of anything in your writing except the love of spreading your feathers. I hope I’m wrong, but that’s how it feels…often.
Does Hollywood get some stuff wrong, sure, but so do you, and so do I. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies (I Cor. 8:1). I would love to see you come across more as a friend than almighty and wonderful.
8:24 AM
It's a VERY dangerous thing to equate what Scripture calls Israel and the current political state of Israel. They may or may not be one and the same.
Read Amos 9:1-15
...14 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.
Matthew Henry commentary on Amos 9:
...The Lord would scatter the Jews, and visit them with calamities, as the corn is shaken in a sieve; but he would save some from among them. The astonishing preservation of the Jews as a distinct people, seems here foretold. If professors make themselves like the world, God will level them with the world. The sinners who thus flatter themselves, shall find that their profession will not protect them.
God said He would plant Israel on THEIR land. Most people recognize who the Jews are and recognize that the land of Israel belongs to them. Matthew Henry acknowledges it. Hollywood acknowledges it. The Palestinians recognize their nemesis of old. And the United Nations got it right.
I think it would be VERY dangerous not to consider the Jews as the rightful owners of Israel. VERY DANGEROUS.
Brent, what other people group do you believe to be the proper owners/occupiers of the land?
Even demented Hitler could identify the people group of Israel.
If present
8:44 AM
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
9:28 AM
or if we keep our garages and yards neat, it might cry out believe in jesus!!!! grrrrr
10:08 AM
Okay, first let me say I'm thrilled this dialogue is occuring as a result of something I wrote...I'm not even sure why I blog...it's been a great way to flesh out my thoughts (most of which are spiritual).
Now, to defend Brent a bit...we lived together for 3 years and have been friends for over 20. If anyone is pompous it's me, so I think he knows that to get my attention he has to come on strong. The soft sell doesn't work for me.
Furthermore, I'm a part of the Kingdom because BRENT was an ACTIVE SPREADER OF THE GOSPEL. Let's just say, his lawn wasn't pristine and he couldn't pass Algebra...so pursuing excellence wasn't on the agenda. What he was...and is...was a GREAT friend, who earned the right to shoot straight with this pompus a>> and really challenged my world view.
The balance of the Gospel (propably my next blog post) is manefesting itself daily. Our God is a God of order AND spontanaity...of passive AND active evangelism...to quote Brent.."The Kingdom is a big Kingdom, and it has all types". When I read your comments, both of them, all of them, I think, hmm, there both right. I know that's hard to comprehend, but that's how I see it.
Thanks guys for doing it here.
5:55 PM
Cletus, how in the world can you presume that the current political state is actually the Israel that Scripture talks about? Because, if you do, then how would all those verses have been interpreted before 1945? And how would you interpret them in 10 years if the current political state were overtaken?
Just apply both of those time frames to the Amos verses you mentioned. How would they sound if the current political state didn't/won't exist? As if a future event is going to take place, right? So, in theory, the current political state might not be what is being referred to, right?
Now, don't get me wrong. I'm very aware of the reality that they COULD be--and I agree with you that the U.N. got it right. I tend to have conservative political leanings so I do appreciate our political alliance with Israel...I'm just not ready to go so far as to apply Scriptural promises to them FOR SURE. So, my point to Hollywood was that to do so wasn't necessarily the best course of action.
And, yes, I usually start Hollywood with the "soft sell" on his blog. It usually reverts to having to use phrases that get his attention. It's a dance we've perfected over a quarter century. Sorry it didn't come across that way. And, since your tone wasn't so clear cut, I responded in the way I thought the conversation was going. In other words, I'm sorry if responding to "have you been asleep?" by joining in the fun and writing as if we're talking came across harsh. It certainly wasn't meant to be.
And, Cletus, just so we're clear here: I don't believe we should never speak of the Gospel message. It's what I do for a living, for crying out loud. And, yes, it's one of the reasons that I blog. But if you'll notice on my blog it's done in such a way that you'll see the entirety of life out there...the good, the bad, the ugly. Otherwise, I'd just write a position paper, post it, and leave it there. Without the context of my life, the Gospel message is just an idea that should be considered. With the context of my life, it's got some real example of how God has transformed me from what I was to what I am.
I simply believe, to use your Mormon bicycle example, that we should simply live a life of "love, justice, mercy and walking humbly with our God" which will give us a platform so that when we do say those things about the love of Jesus Christ we can have the transformed life proven by the Fruit of the Spirit to back it up. It MEANS something then.
The Mormons in bicycles have pretty much irritated everyone I know in our neighborhood. They showed up at Thanksgiving...as have the Jehovah's Witnesses. The same could be said for the guy leaving a tract instead of a cash tip to the waitress. They've SAID something. But they've done more harm than good in so many ways.
And, to anoneeemus: So, if you let your yard go and your fence fall apart and critters run in and out of your garage...do you think talking to your neighbor who keeps his yard neat about his need for Jesus is going to be received well? Where I live, subdivisions actually have to create legal documents to keep their yards attractive, so maybe it's a moot point there.
So, to you both, I think we need to live out loud, and when necessary, use words. It's a famous quote. I'm in good company.
4:51 AM
Brent you didn’t say clean your garage and then share, you said take care of your stuff and shut up. Look at your message again: - "In other words, BE who you are created to BE...with excellence. Then shut up. You'll be living so loudly the world can't even hear what you say...and that's the new apologetic." How ridiculous.
So, to you both, I think we need to live out loud, and when necessary, use words. It's a famous quote. I'm in good company.
Brent, are you in good company just because it's a famous quote? Since when did "famous" make points with the LORD? Since when did "popular" please God. Aaron and the calf were a hit with most in the camp, save one and perhaps some others. I don't really know that you're in good company.
I could quote a hundred popular phrases and clichés before God and I know He wouldn’t say “I am soo impressed, this must be truth.” How absurd.
The COMMAND was go and tell, not clean your garage and shut up.
Your revisionist history statement of what you originally stated didn’t go unnoticed – you didn’t fool me.
5:02 AM
Cletus, again, context matters...
...and the original context of my comments was framed around the issue of the transformed Christian life as it relates to governmental involvement.
And, I used examples all along the way about how Bono used his excellence in one area to gain an audience on world debt reduction. Inherently, he SAID something only because his life backed up what he was saying. His excellence as a rock star and intelligence displayed in the media allowed him an audience with the president of the United States. He's not even a citizen of our country.
Not to mention that my life involves a line of work in which I am talking about the Gospel message in all sorts of areas every single day. One day it might be to a MOPS group. The next to my small group of high school guys. The next to the men's group I lead. The next at a sermon that I'll give to my church. The next in my Sunday School class I teach weekly. Again, "shutting up" was referring to earning the right to be heard, not coldly imposing our words without a lifestyle of love behind it--like a guy leaving a tract for a waitress "because it's the best tip he could give her" after being demanding and rude. But if he'd been a joyful customer, left a generous cash tip for good service, and tucked a tract into the mix, the waitress might take the time to read it. The act of a tract can be good or bad.
See? Context matters.
And, no, I'm not in good company because of a famous quote. I'm in good company because St. Francis of Assisi was able to read his Bible and glean precisely the point I've been trying to make here (which has devolved so far beyond my political context to wit):
Our lives give credence to our words. Without the real, live flesh & blood showing love, they are merely words. And sometimes the most loving thing to do is use the words. And sometimes the most loving thing to do is take your neighbors dinner while they're grieving over the recent discovery of how far their father's Alzheimer's has progressed.
Which is why discourse in this forum is very difficult. Because the format doesn't allow for more exhaustive treatments of the subject. You pick and choose what to address (as I do with yours), and can't stop me for clarification on certain points (nor I for you)...leading to 7 posts attacking something I never meant.
And, Cletus, you'd be surprised at how many words I use daily, my friend. If a teenager comes to me with a drug use issue, I can assure you I don't sit silently and live well by not doing drugs. But I can also assure you that if the student knows I love them, the words I have to say get an honest hearing.
And, Cletus, my guess is that we're a lot closer, politically as well as regarding evangelism, than it appears here. I mean, it's been interesting to see what you're gleaning...
...because if I were as you seem to think, I'd guess that after 20 years of full-time ministry, somebody would've figured out that I didn't fulfill the requirements for pastor/elder in Timothy and Titus. My students wouldn't be actively involved in our church's ministry. My former students wouldn't be attending seminary or planting churches or being excellent coaches/teachers/moms/dads/etc. My wife would certainly have left me and my kids would avoid me at all costs.
But, instead, my church, my students, my family and friends, and my neighbor's children who are emptying out their parent's house this month for a long nursing home road, seem to understand that I love them. I feel quite certain that emotion is reciprocated...although I don't know for sure about the neighbors across the street. I haven't had enough conversation with them yet.
Which would add credence to my words, don't you think?
6:43 AM
Context does matter:
Brent: "then strive to be excellent first. Show me by your actions and then YOU WON'T HAVE TO TALK ABOUT IT."
Brent has spoken - why would we want to talk about it?
Brent: "In other words, BE who you are created to BE...with excellence. THEN SHUT UP. You'll be living so loudly the world can't even hear what you say...and that's the new apologetic.
That's the new apologetic - Brent said it and that makes it so.
Brent: "Which, by the way, is the old apologetic."
Again, Brent has spoken. Don't say ANYTHING, just clean your garage and it will speak for you.
Your sentiment is repeated three times. That's context.
Anoneeeemous didn't have any trouble picking out the meaning from the context. Of course you suggested that anoneeeemous TALK to the neighbor. Which is in direct VIOLATION of what you suggest Christians do. You contradicted yourself - according to the new...and old apologetic.
4:54 AM
Context does matter:
Brent: "then strive to be excellent first. Show me by your actions and then YOU WON'T HAVE TO TALK ABOUT IT."
Brent has spoken - why would we want to talk about it?
Brent: "In other words, BE who you are created to BE...with excellence. THEN SHUT UP. You'll be living so loudly the world can't even hear what you say...and that's the new apologetic.
That's the new apologetic - Brent said it and that makes it so.
Brent: "Which, by the way, is the old apologetic."
Again, Brent has spoken. Don't say ANYTHING, just clean your garage and it will speak for you.
Your sentiment is repeated three times. That's context.
Anoneeeemous didn't have any trouble picking out the meaning from the context. Of course you suggested that anoneeeemous TALK to the neighbor. Which is in direct VIOLATION of what you suggest Christians do. You contradicted yourself - according to the new...and old apologetic.
4:54 AM
By the way, I understand that it takes, on average, seven times of hearing the gospel before one believes. Not the observation of seven clean garages. Not the observation of seven well-manicured lawns.
Paul would say whether pretence or in truth he rejoices that Christ is proclaimed (Philippians 1:18). PROCLAIMED - nothing said about cleaning the garage AND even if the motives are wrong, Paul is glad that his LORD is being proclaimed.
You see Brent, people can become believers even when they hear the truth from the single mom who cannot seem to get her lawn mowed or the garage cleaned. People can become believers even if the single mom's ragamuffin kid shares the truth with others..yes, perhaps you would have us "shut up" but we won't
The gospel is meant to be shared, not just by those who've got it together...
It is written - whether in pretence or in truth...
Let's not tell people to shut up
Let's not proclaim silence as the new and old apologetic - Who do you think would rejoice in that, yes, the evil one
Let's not make people feel that only those who have got it together can share, because I don't and neither do most people. Maybe you do have it together and your garage is clean and your lawn is nice, well great.
God loves me in spite of me and wants me to tell others...even with my warts and all
5:21 AM
Cletus, did you even read my last post? Context matters. It's like statistics: You can interpret them any way you want...making your interpretation anything you want.
And I guess the reality that my lifetime of talking about the Gospel has little, if any, impact on your interpretation of what I wrote?
And, since you've now turned the attacks personal, well, my participation is finished.
5:32 AM
Brent, I am personally offended as well. I find your comments horrendously offensive. Your comments to "SHUT UP,"Your passive position so eloquently stated:
"In other words, BE who you are created to BE...with excellence. Then shut up. You'll be living so loudly the world can't even hear what you say...and that's the new apologetic. Which, by the way. is the old apologetic."
"Show me by your actions and then you won't have to talk about it."
Brent, I'm offended. You say you're a minister? And you give the command to shut up because it's the new and old apologetic? Frankly, I'd be ashamed if I'd written those words - by our words we are justified or condemned. I want encouragement to be bold, not to keep silent. That's been in style too long and I want help and encouragement to speak up...even if my garage is filthy. I think people would like to hear the gospel from those who aren't perfect so they see that even the imperfect can be accepted by the Savior too.
I truly do find your comments vastly offensive, and I wish you'd retract them.
7:56 PM
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